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rhapsody

Joined:

Apr 05

Posts: 2960

rhapsody says:

Re: Why is bad behaviour a sign of good riding?

Re the concept of NH, clicker training and all other "new" methods.  Someone I truly respect when it comes to horses once said to me that a well known household name in NH was the cleverest man in the horse world, and not because of his methods, but because he had basically taken the methods used by all true horsemen for centuries and given it a brand name and made a fortune.  Yes these methods have always been there but the business minds have seen an oportunity to brand them and expand them etc for profit, collecting endorsements and publicity along the way and thus fooling everyone into believing they are the new modern way.  I believe that horses will always respond positively to firm but sympathetic handling and respect, whether it is done old fashionedly (if that's even a word!) or by someone clicking away at it.

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lydiarose

Joined:

Oct 10

Posts: 783

lydiarose says:

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fredhead said:

This really gets me that people will looks at a horse with a hefty bit in its mouth, straps all over it and it will still be bucking and leaping about and go "wow... that's a really good rider!" Surely a good rider would be able to stop these problems? I would say a good rider would be someone who can take a horse like that, re-school it and have it competing quietly and relaxed on a nice loose rein in a simple snaffle bit. Why does that not inspire awe? Why is it the gadgets and the bad behaviour that people admire?


------ End Quote ------

I think its because it looks exciting and to begin with people ride riding school horses and seek something more adrenaline filled.

My horse right now is four, and he is one of those horses that buck and leap about. Simply because for one he is young, he is of an excited nature, he is also nervous and also a bit scared. Young kids say 'wow' when he rears and bucks mostly because they are taken aback by how massive they are when they are up on their back legs, but to be quite honest its not as easy as getting him to go completely quietly on a loose rein. I've had him since June and I'm still very much at square one when it comes to his 'issues', but I will agree with what people have said about bits, the thought of putting something strong in his mouth mortifies me. He's in a french link and will never have anything stronger.

Even a good rider would not be able to stop a horse jumping about in most circumstances, sometimes you just have to ride it out.

I think people re-schooling and having them going quietly inspires awe to some, for example Woody on a quiet night at the yard goes as if he has been being schooled for years and years, which inspires awe in those that are there and have seen what he is usually like.

But I think the 'bad behaviour' and 'gadgets' are admired and inspire awe because people do not know the backing story to a horse or a rider. Because really no one knows the true backing story to a reason why a horse is doing something. People just assume that the horse is bad so a good rider has been put on it because they must know how to deal with it.

Its the difference between the rider making the horse do the behaviour and the horse needing the kind of rider it has been paired with.

Woodhouse JT <3

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kesanne

Joined:

Jun 10

Posts: 25

kesanne says:

Re: Why is bad behaviour a sign of good riding?

Sadly I have listened to some youngsters commenting on an aquaintance of their admiring how good he is at 'hotting his horses up' as soon as he gets on them. Makes me cringe to think they see him as a role model and I wouldn't let him within 10 feet of any the horses that I have dealings with. Was told I'm an outdated old granny when I voiced my opinion - hey ho, at least I know my horse friends don't fear me. (Horses are my friends as much as anything else, dopey I know).

Kesanne

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kevinhiatt

Joined:

Aug 10

Posts: 5611

kevinhiatt says:

Re: Why is bad behaviour a sign of good riding?

It was really funny in away but 4 of us with quite lively horses had not a whip, spurs, running martingales between us and we were all trotting on a loose rein, then we came across a chap riding a dutch warm blood that had all the gismo's you could think of and the rider was wearing spurs as well, this horse was lovely and was not a handful as ours. I think sometimes that it a showing off thing, I like my horse well behaved but with spirit ok my Cob through a wobbly at times but horses do also enjoying himself that he bucked at canter but his back end just floated around much to the alarm of others but that was Tonka even at 29 at the time. The new horse will go out the same way with just a saddle,bridle with french link eggbutt snaffle and nothing else, hopefully no riding crop either, a well schooled horse will know how to behave without loosing its spirit.

Gypsy Gold does not chink & glitter.It gleams in the sun and neighs in the dark.Tonka & Lara my beautiful horses RIP, Nelson,Chloe & Kitty the cats.

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classicalequitation

Joined:

Dec 10

Posts: 10

Re: Why is bad behaviour a sign of good riding?

 I think it is dreadfully sad to see the attitude that people won't spare time to learn and apply ''newer'' ideas and methods of thinking and work. I clicker train all my horses and when my Daughters welsh sec A arrived, he would bolt, rear, buck, nap and do all sorts- obviously not an ideal candidate for my daughter; but I saw that once he had the vet checks etc, we could get cracking using clicker training to settle him down. I used a french link snaffle for him, and kept him in that (I'm quite small so I could ride him); but before I even rode him, we spent a few months working on calmness- in-hand work,; long lining and then transferring what we'd learnt in to the saddle. It may have taken a little longer than some people may like- but it is worth it.

 

I personally think horses are put under a lot of pressure in todays show rings. People who push their horses and probably leave little bits out, and the foundations are the most important part- if people rush these foundations to the point where they are pushed and pushed to meet deadlines then it is sad. Competition is really only for a human purpose and doesn't really take the horse into much consideration; does it? The horses are expected to fit deadlines and exploited for our own selfish needs- do we NEED to compete? Is it fair to push a horse in order to make him win us rosettes and medals. 

 

Of course; one could say that ''what is the problem with changing methodology that has been used for 100's of years''; okay so they are the more popular choice of method ( quicker, harsher etc)- but let's face it, back in the old days- we used horses for transport- it worked- people got around, but then cars were invented and they quickly replaced horses. Nothing was wrong but cars were more efficient and a better way of transport. Arguably; the newer ideas of clicker, applied animal behaviour work hand in hand with classical principles and offer an alternative, more enlightening approach to horse training. 

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alishiaxxx

Joined:

Jun 10

Posts: 157

alishiaxxx says:

Re: Why is bad behaviour a sign of good riding?

Can't agree more! Some people set out to purpously hurt their horses with harsh bits and flashes and everything!!!!!!!! But maybe they are a good RIDER for staying on, if the horse is bucking, but really, the horse is bucking cause its got horrid bits and straps on it!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Fenris

Joined:

Oct 07

Posts: 564

Fenris says:

Re: Why is bad behaviour a sign of good riding?

katz said:

 Fenris when I  ever use the word EVIL

and some of these "NH" methods have also been around for years you only have to take a look at the native americans!

It took about 20mins to teach my mare to stand still at a mounting block using PR so it does not always take a "life time"


 Katz, 20 mins is by no means a lifetime, but that was just to get her to stand at the mounting block! Extrapolate that to how long it would take to teach various ridden exercises, and compare it to the time you have to produce the horse and move it along. Professionals are after either results or a sale, it's their livelihood. 

 

I also never said you used the word evil, but I do always get the feeling that the new wave of NH people view the rest of us as somehow cruel and lesser horsemen.

 

And the Native Americans were great riders, it is true, but they also rode their horses into the ground and then ate them when it was expedient to do so. I don't think I will be doing that any time soon! A lot of these guys like Parelli etc are real charlatans. Sure, their techniques seem to work, but I would like to see them deal with really difficult horses in the privacy of home. 

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kevinhiatt

Joined:

Aug 10

Posts: 5611

kevinhiatt says:

Re: Why is bad behaviour a sign of good riding?

My old Cob came to me with running martingale, roundings on his pelham, off came the martingale as no need as its purpose I believe is to keep the horses head down, but Tonka used to lock his neck / head between his front legs and lean on his bit resulting in the riders arms nearly being pulled out their sockets. Removed the roundings and went with double reins how light he became not leaning on his bit and stopped locking his neck, tried to use a snaffle which I managed in the end using a german hollow mouth eggbutt snaffle. Was told that Gypsy cobs are never broken in just used but Tonka was I informed had been trained in all the aids much to an Instructor I once had and was suprised, also followed word instruction making him very very sharp, always classed as not a novice ride, he was a much loved loyal member of my family.

Gypsy Gold does not chink & glitter.It gleams in the sun and neighs in the dark.Tonka & Lara my beautiful horses RIP, Nelson,Chloe & Kitty the cats.

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classicalequitation

Joined:

Dec 10

Posts: 10

Re: Why is bad behaviour a sign of good riding?

 Fenris, I think what Katz is trying to say is that it took 20 minutes using positive reinforcement to encourage her horse to stand at the mounting block, and teach her. Thus now her horse stands at the mounting block when asked now. 

Not 20 minutes every time. 

 

Positive Reinforcement is a very good way of training horses. 

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Fenris

Joined:

Oct 07

Posts: 564

Fenris says:

Re: Why is bad behaviour a sign of good riding?

 Not saying it isn't a good way to train horses, more that it is not the only way.

 

I don;t think gadgets are a problem when used for their purpose. I have used a de gogue and draw reins, to help muscle my youngster over his back and get him working up through the shoulder. I ride in a flash because he sticks his tongue over the bit, but use a rubber snaffle as he has a very delicate mouth. When I jump I use a breastplate to stop the saddle slipping. I also carry a stick (schooling or jumping depending on what I am doing), sometimes two, and I ride in spurs because he is lazy off the leg. These things are not necessarily wrong, they work when used correctly. There is no shame in using the right equipment for your horse.

 

However, in response to the initial question, I think people perceive anyone who is ballsy enough to get on a crazy horse or who can sit it out when it goes for a rodeo must have some skill at riding, which is true. As you say though, if they had real talent then they would be schooling out as many of those problems as possible.

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