Re: Join Up ? Love it , Hate it ?

Fi & Smartass said:

 Oh yes forgot to add, just another little random thought of mine... If people view join up where a horse is turned loose and sent away through the use of body language and throwing the end of a line at them (correct me if I'm wrong but this line should never make contact with the horse right?) as cruel then what is their view of lunging where a horse is sent away using a whip (which yes also shouldn't touch them but does make rather an unpleasant cracking sound) whilst they have a lunge line attached to their head with the handler holding the other end? Surely at least in join up the horse should feel slightly less restricted as, having no line attached to their head they at least have the illusion of freedom? This is just a random little thought that pops into my head when I see people calling join up cruel, I personally do not view either lunging or join up as being cruel if practised correctly

Well actual real Join up she should never use a line - when fi did it with adam he used his hands just by moving his arm did the trick. Same at kelly marks demo i took fi to. When i do it i never use line or anything like that x

Re: Join Up ? Love it , Hate it ?

 horse liketo have a clear hieracy anyway, and we would never have tamed them and got on their backs if we didnt do this. i think people should undertake it carefully with an expirienced persons advice though so they dont accidently send out confusing signels to there horse.

Actually they don't.  If you read articles by Lucy Rees and Martha Kiley-Worthington, who have studied this,  you'll see that there ISN'T a linear hierarchy in a herd situation.  Some horses will be more assertive than others, that's their personality, but as a prey animals they have to take care of each other and look out for each other.  The idea that there's a 'boss' in the herd is wrong, there might be bullies who will get all rambo and throw their weight around but they won't be the ones that the other horses follow. 

You can't send a horse away and dominate a horse and still have them as your friend.  It just doesn't work like that.  You have to be able to trust each other, sometimes the horse has to do what you ask of him but other times you will need to rely on him.  It's not about one telling the other what to do as that then gives the subordinate absolutely no say in the relationship at all.

As I said before, Join Up does work, but you need to know how it works and why it works and what the consequences are.  I would prefer my horse to want to be with me than be with me because I've dominated him into sticking around me as I've made him feel like he has no other option.

Re: Join Up ? Love it , Hate it ?

I've used on Sir, it was very useful.

Paddy also did it with him, also useful.

In my opinion it is a useful tool/technique, but needs to be used in the right context and in the correct manner.

It is not a magic wand, neither is any of the equipment used. Sometimes it suites people and sometimes it doesn't

Consistancy is definately the key. I've always done things the way Monty Roberts and Kelly Marks do things and it works for me. Wether its my horse or someone elses wether I am working the horse or just in the field  with them. That's just the way I do things it works for me.

Does not mean that everyone else is wrong, I think that the important thing is, that beating and bashing and terrorizing an animal into submission is wrong, be it physically or otherwise.

I could see my horse coming to understand that, he had definately been beaten, whips, hoses, fists lots of shouting and yanking. You have to show them the way to go without drama and wait for them to understand

It does work but it takes an awful lot of patience and work to undo the damage. I have been told that the horse was mad and dangerous. He's not and never was. He had just been treated in the wrong way.

He seems to be absolutey fine and is being ridden by teenage girls going to shows and having fun.

So how mad and dangerous is he now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?

So I love it!