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You are in... Forums > Welcome To Your Horse Forum > The Yard > Join Up ? Love it , Hate it ?

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GemmaPsycho

Joined:

Jan 10

Posts: 219

GemmaPsycho says:

Join Up ? Love it , Hate it ?

I use join up and find it really helps get results in whatever discipline you want you and your horse to do , its based on behaviour shown by a mare to her foals to set boundaries and gain respect . Now I know alot of people claim it doesn't make sense and is 'cruel', but people have got to remember they are not humans and don't think like us , and when you do join up they dont end up 'resenting' you . If anyone who study's horse pscyhology will undersdtand where I am coming from ,its used with their nature to be in a herd its in their instincts and people can't change that , if your horse see's you as the lead horse then he will actually seek to be with you more as he will see you as a suitable confident leader and will find comfort in that , after all  when you horse is scared of something they are more likely to face that fear with you than someone they dont have a relationship . I know people say how they want an equal partnership with their horse and doing join up doesnt allow that , but its the horses language so i just get annoyed when people knock it too quickly , its not cruel or unfair, its what they know. At the end of the day it helped Psycho coem from where he was , he used to have no respect for anyone and was dangerous  , i didnt beat him out of it liek some people I know would do :( I did join up and he is a lovely horse now because he's accepted me as the alpha ( i wont say dominant cause people will have a go at me for using that word *eyeroll* even though that is the correct term hieracrhy wise ) , I would rather he was safe to be around and I was a fair leader than he was 'top'  and just attacked everyone like he used to , he had no trust and the best way to gain trust is to become part of the herd. I get that people dont want to use it and each to their own obviosly ! I just ahte people claiming its cruel and makes no sense . !

What do you all think of join up ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7dntKNwfTc   <-------- video="" of="" me="" &="" psycho="" doing="" join="" up="" yesterday="" :/="" feel="" free="" to="" comment="" on="" it="" bad="" or="">

Psycho~The little Arab who wasn't so bad after all ")

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Banshee

Joined:

Aug 09

Posts: 42

Banshee says:

Re: Join Up ? Love it , Hate it ?

Love the video. 

 

I think Join Up, when used in the correct circumstances, is a fantastic tool in the arsenal of the horse trainer.  I read somewhere recently that seeing someone who already has that kind of relationship with their horse can be heartbreaking because the horse doesn't know what it has done to be sent away which I agree with.  I had that kind of relationship with my old boy, it took a while to get and I didn't use the Join Up method because I didn't know about it but we came to an understanding and eventually he would follow me around and it was wonderful.

 

I understand what you mean by people not understanding, I have also been involved in a lot of dog training and some people don't understand methods even if they are not cruel in any way.  The funniest is when I yelp like a puppy when a puppy mouths my hand (as they do!) between the look on their face and the look on the people nearby if they haven't seen it before makes me cry with laughter!!!  However the number of puppies who stopped mouthing people and have grown up into non-mouthy/bitey dogs is worth it.

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abbieandfiona

Joined:

Mar 09

Posts: 5016

Re: Join Up ? Love it , Hate it ?

As long as you do it properly then its fine i do join up and it helps fi as she understands it and comes in quickly to me as well x

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Banshee

Joined:

Aug 09

Posts: 42

Banshee says:

Re: Join Up ? Love it , Hate it ?

Should have mentioned, I am going to see Monty Roberts at Gleneagles on the 2nd October.  Anyone else going to this or any of his other tour dates?

 

I'm looking forward to seeing the whole thing rather than just the small bits you get on tv, I dont know anyone who uses it in my area.

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kevinhiatt

Joined:

Aug 10

Posts: 5599

kevinhiatt says:

Re: Join Up ? Love it , Hate it ?

It worked on my new rescued ex-racehorse 17.2h Chesnut Mare, she now has me well trained. Follows me everywhere especially if I have a bucket of feed.

Gypsy Gold does not chink & glitter.It gleams in the sun and neighs in the dark.Tonka & Lara my beautiful horses RIP, Nelson,Chloe & Kitty the cats.

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tipsy_296

Joined:

Nov 08

Posts: 1799

tipsy_296 says:

Re: Join Up ? Love it , Hate it ?

Banshee said:

Should have mentioned, I am going to see Monty Roberts at Gleneagles on the 2nd October.  Anyone else going to this or any of his other tour dates?

 

I'm looking forward to seeing the whole thing rather than just the small bits you get on tv, I dont know anyone who uses it in my area.


------ End Quote ------

 

Do you know where else he is touring or a website with the dates? I would love to go but Gleneagles is a bit of a journey from Cambridgeshire! lol xxx

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*duskyteddy*

Joined:

Oct 08

Posts: 2783

*duskyteddy* says:

Re: Join Up ? Love it , Hate it ?

 Great thread post, Gem. 

I'm in two minds when it comes to Join- Up, I see the benefits from it, i.e how it has helped your relationship with Psycho develop, but you know my reservations and my questions about it anyway. 

My questions were; 

If the horse wants to be with you, why do we send it away?

In the herd, do the mares only send the foals away as a punishment or for a certain reason, therefore can Join-Up be punishing to some horses?

 

It didn't work for Shadow and me, I perhaps did it wrong, but we've got a way which works and it is following how horses learn and train, applying learning theory in order to understand why he behaves. I think dominance is another subject in it's own, and there are so many different views on it, for example, KFH uses the word dominance a lot, but perhaps this is the language barrier, meaning he cannot entirely interpret the word, and dominance is a similar word. Secondly, it depends how we view dominance. Just like some people see horses taking the pee is naughty, out of spite and malicious, whereas others, term it into the catergory of horses having a sense of humour. 

I agree with the latter, horses have a sense of humour, and I think they enjoy the attention received from a certain behaviour, for example, Shadow used to eat his headcollar when he put it on, and I would talk to him, sometimes I would laugh and other times I would be like 'oh Shad!!', he got a bit of attention from it. I lacked consistency, but I have now, successfully extinguished this behaviour, although the odd extinction burst does occur, but if I keep consistent, this will soon enough, disappear altogether. 

Join Up is something which I do not fully understand, and I have not fully studied it. He gave a brief outline in his book and on his videos, but these questions still gnaw away at me!!! 

 

xx

Our lives begin to end; the day we become silent about the things that matter.

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brook

Joined:

Sep 08

Posts: 5209

brook says:

Re: Join Up ? Love it , Hate it ?

I agree with Duskyteddy, as surely in the wild the alpha mare will only send a youngster away if he/she has pushed the boundaries or done something wrong. I don't really see the point of chasing your horse away when he's done nothing wrong and then asking him to come back !! This is just my personal opinion and I know that join up has been a valuable tool for many of you so if it works for you then great, it's very much a personal thing. 

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*duskyteddy*

Joined:

Oct 08

Posts: 2783

*duskyteddy* says:

Re: Join Up ? Love it , Hate it ?

 Well, if it works, then I don't see a problem. 

We had an RA come out to the yard and she helped me give it ago.... hmm, never again, I nearly cried, Shadow was trembling and jumped a 4 foot fence, but then, he hates that sort of stuff, he's a very affectionate horse and always has been, so didn't particularly want to be sent out. However, after meeting Psycho on numerous occasions, before and after Join-Up, the benefits have been pretty transparent. 

Brook, absolutely, I think that some horses may see this as a punishment, but again, I don't really understand it entirely to really elaborate! 

Our lives begin to end; the day we become silent about the things that matter.

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Tommytank

Joined:

Jan 10

Posts: 2000

Tommytank says:

Re: Join Up ? Love it , Hate it ?

Tommy is a very dominant horse, he is in charge of the field and quite possibly me, although I'm not 100% sure.  I tried to do join up with him last year in an electric fence pen, after kicking out and rearing for 10 minutes at me he jumped out of the pen.

I had another go on sunday (never again) my new fields have a sort of lunge pen with 2 sides of 20ft trees, one side of 5ft cornish hedge and one of post and rail.  I put a bit of 3ft tape up to take one corner out, he jumped straigt over so I got 4ft poles and put a 4ft rope up behind it, he jumped straight over.  I put him back in went to fetch some more rope came back - he was gone! over the 5ft cornish hedge into a small field.  So i thinks ok we will have a little go in here.  Straight over the 5 bar gate Tommy is a 14 3 haflinger not a sports horse!  He won, I didn't have anywhere to go from there.  I wish I could do it but I just don't think I will ever be able to. 

I went to see monty last year thought he was great.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/536812_10150975524292219_1369322372_n.jpg

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Bobandben

Joined:

Apr 10

Posts: 402

Bobandben says:

Re: Join Up ? Love it , Hate it ?

brook said:

I agree with Duskyteddy, as surely in the wild the alpha mare will only send a youngster away if he/she has pushed the boundaries or done something wrong. I don't really see the point of chasing your horse away when he's done nothing wrong and then asking him to come back !! This is just my personal opinion and I know that join up has been a valuable tool for many of you so if it works for you then great, it's very much a personal thing. 



 

I totally agree, i only send Bob away when he's being agressive, tried to bite me (which he hasn't been doing), or been agressive towards Ollie. 

x

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